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Recent Discussion
Darold on Submit a Question Darold on Submit a Question phil on Submit a Question Darold on Kingdom Charts from Part 3 on … Aaron McCarter on Submit a Question
June 6, 2008 at 3:04 pm
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June 6, 2008 at 3:06 pm
Hey Aaron,
One of my favorite passages on the kingdom is Luke 17:20-21. I’ve studied it a little but it still completely baffles me. Could you help a poor jock out?
The pitiful FCA guy
June 6, 2008 at 10:06 pm
20 Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as R737 to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs R738 F390 to be observed; 21 nor will they R739 say, `Look, here it is!’ or, `There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in F391 your midst.”
well…let me give you the longish short answer. The first thing to be clarified is, “What is the kingdom of God?” The kingdom of God is the rule and the reign of God. It is, as a kingdom is for any king, the realm over which he exercises his rule.
The Pharisees, when asking this question, had a million preconceived ideas about what would happen when the Kingdom of God came. They saw it exclusively as an apocalyptic event. It was, in their minds, the end of the world when the Messiah would come and set up an earthly kingdom, Jerusalem would be the capitol of the world, the righteous would be lifted up, the unrighteous would be punished. So this is, for them, a LOADED question! In essence they’re saying, “OK Jesus, here’s a good one…when’s the end of the world coming?”
But the Pharisees ideas about the Kingdom of God were incomplete. Jesus taught that the Kingdom of God was already present…he also taught that the kingdom was ‘almost here’ or ‘at hand’…he also taught that the kingdom had been delayed…and he taught that the kingdom was altogether future, or the end of the world fulfillment that they were picturing. All of which were simultaneously true! What the Pharisees didn’t know is that all of the powers of the kingdom that would one day come to earth in full at the end of the age, were already inaugurated in the coming of Jesus. In other words, even though the kingdom (the rule and reign of God) wasn’t fully established, it was already there.
However, the Pharisees were picturing all of the apocalyptic end-of-the-world-stuff that they’d read about in Daniel and Isaiah–the sun refusing to shine, the moon turning to blood, darkness covering the earth, earthquakes, etc…they had a whole set of expectations for dramatic signs and wonders that would accompany the coming of the kingdom. But Jesus told them to stop looking just for those things…that their concept of the kingdom was too limited…it wasn’t only a future expectation, it was a present reality as well.
So Jesus’ answer, if you think about it, was pretty hilarious. The Pharisees ask, “when is the end of the world?” And Jesus replies, “You’re standing in it right now.” And they were!
June 29, 2008 at 9:03 pm
So i left a comment in the wrong space earlier, and then listened to sermon 3, which answered part of my question….so now a question from sermon 3.
You said that when Jesus said “this generation will not pass away until all these things take place” (Mark 13:30) that he was referring to the Pentecost. I can understand how Pentecost was the KOG breaking through, but how was that applicable to the rest of the Olivet Discourse?
BTY, very good sermon. your angle offers a better and more relevant exegesis than dispensationalism.
July 1, 2008 at 3:04 pm
hey, aaron!
my question is in reference to part four of the kingdom series. you mentioned at one point the increased frequency of revivals in recent years. i’m wondering what, specifically, you’re talking about. tent revivals? something on a grander scale? what’s the difference between the two? does one “mean” more than the other? not to create a whole lot of extra work for you, but some sort of timeline of major revivals (the kind you’re talking about) would be helpful; if it’s easier, tell me where to find such a thing online or in print. thanks!
July 4, 2008 at 8:00 pm
no question, just observation. In Revelation 1:9, John tells his readers that he is their brother and partner in the kingdom. Clearly, he saw Christ’s reign in the present tense. Just one of those obscure verses that I came across today. You can add it to the “already” list of God’s reign.
July 8, 2008 at 7:26 pm
This past Sunday’s message was centered on the Kingdom of God being that of celebrations (dancing and drinking wine were mentioned). All of the points that were made were validated with Scripture, and I have no problem at all with the interpretations that were given. I just wanted to point out that the references that were made of Heavenly celebrations are future and we do not know the details of those events.
I just wanted to give the following Scriptures and thoughts to offer my perspective on PRESENT DAY dancing and drinking wine.
Regarding Dancing
Dancing is something that we have record of in countless Biblical accounts. The thing that I wanted to emphasis about it is that in the Bible we see it conducted in two different ways (with a few exceptions):
1) Worship toward Jehovah and;
2) Worship toward false god(s).
During these dancing occasions, according to Jewish custom, women were fully clothed and certainly were not dancing seductively (except possibly in the case of Herod’s niece). Dancing was choreographed and was not a stumbling block for men to watch, as is the case today, with worldly, seductive gyrating.
Regarding Wine
There are a great multitude of Scriptures that discuss wine; both in admonishing people to drink wine (Prov 31:6, Isa 56:12) and commanding people not to drink wine (Lev 10:9, Num 6:3, Judg 13:4, Luke 1:15).
Anyone could pick any of these verses and make a case for choosing to drink or not to drink wine. Because of this, Paul gives us the following teaching with very clear instruction.
Romans 14:13-21
Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way. As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men. Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
Regarding Dancing & Drinking Alcohol
1 Thess 5:22
Abstain from all appearance of evil.
Titus 2:12
…teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age
Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
John 17:14-16 gives us the account of Jesus’ prayer, where He states that we are to be in the world, but not of it.
Please let me know what you think. Thanks!
July 9, 2008 at 7:53 am
Melanie,
sorry it’s taken me a full week+ to get back to you. Lots of things can be characterized as revivals–I suppose that any time God moves and someone is ‘revived’ it could qualify. However, in the message I was referring to revivals that history has recognized as massive moves of God that have effected culture and many many people. There’s a list in Derek Morphew’s book “Breakthrough” (my primary reference for the Kingdom series)…this is his list:
Assisi
The Reformation
The 1st Great Awakening (Wesley, Whitfield, Edwards)
The 2nd Great Awakening (Moody and Finney)
The Pentecostal Revival
The Jesus People Revival
The Charismatic Renewal
The Renewal of 1994 onwards
That’s his list. There are lists everywhere, though. I came across a list online that seemed to be pretty good–I can’t speak to the rest of the content of this site, but the list seemed like pretty good history to me. It’s at http://www.prayerandhealingcenter.org/revival_history.htm
Do a google search on Revival History and you’ll find mounds of stuff. Now, for one reason or another most revival based websites are just palin wacky…so maybe they aren’t your source for good theology, but there is revival info out there! Let me know if you come across any other questions along the way. thanks for the question!
July 10, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Chad,
Thanks for the post. You asked me to let you know what I think—I’ll have to summarize. I appreciate your position, but will have respectfully disagree on several points.
There is not a single scripture that forbids dancing. It is, however, commanded as a form of worship. To declare dancing to be a sin is to add to the teaching of scripture. Dancing can be sinful, if it becomes an act of lust, or a stumbling block to others. In the same way, eating can be sinful if it becomes gluttony. Work can be sinful, if it becomes idolatry. Joking can become sinful if it grows crude. Admiration can be sinful if it leads to covetousness. Sports can be sinful if our competiveness creates rage. Success can be sin if it leads to pride. Art can be sinful if it subverts God. Religion itself can be sin if it leads to hollow ritual. Are we to stop eating, working, laughing, appreciating, competing, succeeding, creating, and practicing religion, all for fear that it might lead to sin?
Consider the words of the great reformer Martin Luther:
“Do you suppose that abuses are eliminated by destroying the object that is abused? Men can go wrong with wine and women, shall we then abolish women? Some people worship the stars, should we pluck them out of the sky? The answer to that is – no.”
The scriptures you listed forbidding the use of alcohol, simply do not forbid the use of alcohol. Rather, they attest to the use of alcohol among the Jews. The Nazarite vow (Num. 6:3, Jud. 13:4, and Luk. 1:15) is taken as a measure to set people apart from the norm—it was never once given as a commandment to all of God’s people. Among God’s people as a whole, the use of alcohol was not forbidden. The other text given (Lev.10:9) was a commandment given only to Aaron and his sons, and only applied to when they entered the tent of meeting. This in no way forbids the use of alcohol.
The verses you listed at the end of your post (1 Thess 5:22, Titus 2:12, Romans 12:2, John 17:14-16) assume that dancing and drinking are sins, and scripture simply does not teach that.
Drinking alcohol, like dancing, can and very often does lead to sin. But as stated above, we cannot abolish those things which can lead to sin…it would require to the abolition of everything. The Bible makes it clear that Jesus drank alcohol. He drank alcohol, and did not sin. He drank alcohol in a time when alcohol often led to sin.
We must recognize that all good things are gifts from God…and that all good things can be used for evil. Wine is no different. It’s a gift from God, given to gladden the hearts of men.
Psalms 104:14-15:
You cause the grass to grow for the livestock
and plants for man to cultivate,
that he may bring forth food from the earth
15 and wine to gladden the heart of man,
oil to make his face shine
and bread to strengthen man’s heart.
If God makes wine, Jesus drinks it, and He’s given it for the gladdening of our hearts then it’s not a biblical stance to say that alcohol shouldn’t be touched or that God would consider it sin to consume.
The reference to Romans 14 is both relevant and applicable. It speaks to the sin of violating our conscious. The distinction needs to be made between abstinence and prohibition. If someone chooses to abstain from alcohol for matters of conscious, I respect and honor that position wholeheartedly. In fact, more people should choose abstinence than do, which is why alcohol is so destructive in our society. Abstinence is a biblical position. However, one may not prohibit others from drinking, calling it a sin. That is the very thing that Romans 14 is combating. I’m not suggesting that you’re making that claim, I’m just carrying the conversation out!
For some, it is most definitely a sin to drink alcohol:
*Anyone under 21, we must obey the law! (Rom. 13:1-7)
*For anyone who lacks the responsibility or maturity to drink in
moderation, I believe that they must abstain, always.
* If, by drinking, we may cause another person to sin, then it is a
sin for us to drink, even in moderation. We must consider carefully what
Paul teaches in Romans 14, and in 1 Cor. 8
And, of course, the Bible STRONGLY forbids drunkenness, and it defines drunkenness far more conservatively than our society does.
We have to be careful how we apply Rom. 14, because if from it we conclude that drinking alcohol is a sin, then we are calling Jesus a sinner, and violating the essence of the text you quoted, “Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another.”
The Pharisees practiced an ethic of avoidance. They created rules to keep people from breaking rules, and Jesus criticized them harshly for it. We have to defend and observe the rules that scripture gives us, but we are embracing the legalism of the Pharisees if we create new ones…they simply aren’t ours to give. This is a very dangerous mistake to make—one that has caused the church to misrepresent the heart of God, and has done great damage.
I certainly hope you interpret the tone of this post as discussion, and not argument. Once again, I believe that abstinence is a biblical position…one that I wish a lot more people would hold! At the same time, moderation is also a biblical position…one that must not be condemned by the church.
I hope that helps! and I’d love to hear anybody else’s thoughts on this particularly hot topic!
July 10, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. eph 5:18
this is an issue that i have struggled with for a while. i struggled with the implications that come with believing that drinking is a sin in and of itself. this verse reconciled this issue for me. the way i read it it is not a direct command against doing something but it is a set of options like, dont play in traffic which leads to pain, instead go to the park and play. to me this perspective worked.
July 14, 2008 at 8:18 pm
Brother Aaron,
I sort of understand what you mean when you said in msg 7 that we cannot build the God’s kingdom, and I enjoyed your example of having toy tools, but I think that the Word shows us that SOMETHING is being built by us in spirit.
[Sorry for the CAPS below; we can't do bold]
Eph 2:19-22 says “So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,…having BEEN BUILT upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the chief corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together IS GROWING into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also ARE BEING BUILT TOGETHER into a dwelling of God in spirit.” (btw, do you see the already-not-yet in these verses?)
Also 1 Cor 3:12,14: “Now if ANY MANBUILDS upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,…If any man’s work which he has BUILT UPON IT remains,…”
And Isa 9:7: “There will be no end to the INCREASE of His government or of peace…”
And Peter refered to us as living stones that are being built up into a spiritual house (1 Pet 2:5).
I listed all of these verses for anyone reading. I have no doubt, Aaron, that you have considered these. So in what way do you distinguish what you said from these?
You see, I think that God, through the Spirit, and with man, is building something in this age. I suggest that the church through all of these years is actually building the New Jerusalem, His bride.
Christ is doing the building, but 1 Cor 3 is pretty clear that we have an active part in it.
What say you?
brother Darold
July 15, 2008 at 5:17 am
Brother Aaron,
This is a good time to try to clear up a question I have had. The parable of the wheat and tares seems to be the only place that indicates a judgment of the evil taking place prior to the judgment of the righteous. To my understanding the rest of scripture shows the opposite sequence.
What say you about this?
Darold